Bacterial fin infection help??

[ThunderandLightening]

1. Test results for the following:
    Ammonia Level? 0 ppm
    Nitrite Level? 0ppm
    Nitrate Level (Before and After WC's)?  Don't know the before/afters, but about 8 ppm I think
    Ph (in tank and out of tap)?   About 7, leaning towards being acidic
    GH and KH?  Don't remember (I'm not at the apartment right now, so I can't recheck it)...

2. Tank Size?  How long has it been running?  How many gallons?
10 gallons, running for about 6 months.

3. Name and size of your filters?
Tetra 20-40 gallon (modified it to fit the 10 gal tank, but the fish seem to LOVE it)
Tetra 5 gallon whisper

4. How many fish in the tank?  Their size?
2.5-3.0 inch oranda, 1.5-2.0 inch oranda (without tails)

5. How often and how much water do you change?
About 2/3 every three days or so

6. Water additives or conditioners used?
Don't remember the brand name, and don't have it in front of me.  It was one of the ones recommended on this site though...

7. What do you feed your fish?
Peas, gel food, soaked shrimp treats

8. Any medications added to the tank?
No

9. Any new fish added to the tank?  When?
No

10. Any new plants added to the tank?
No

11. Any unusual behavior from the fish?
Bacterial infection on the tail fins.  Red patches around the edges of the tail and you can kind of see the vessels where they've burst. 

12. Well, city or RO water used for WC's?
City

13. Tank/Pond Temperature?
About 75 degrees



First off, I apologize for the sort of vague info above, but if you've read my posts in the general talk section, I've been away for a couple weeks, only able to check on the fish every three days or so, and I won't be back until next week, so I don't have the stuff in front of me.. 
Also, whenever the water is changed, I also do a gravel vac.  Their tank is actually cleaner than it's ever been while I've been on vacation...

Anyway, I'm about 100% sure what I thought was color change at first has turned out to be a bacterial infection on the tail of my larger oranda.  I went ahead and bought some of the generic all-purpose treatment from the local petstore (for fungi, bacteria, ick, ect.).  I don't mind ordering a better medication, but I had no clue what I should get.  Any suggestions would be great..  I just thought it'd be good to have something so I could go ahead and start trying to treat him.  If the storebought stuff is okay to use, I can start putting it in on saturday and use it until I can order better meds.  I just really don't trust the meds from the petstore, and wanted to make sure it wouldn't hurt them before I used it.

I've read several things online that say to isolate a fish for bacterial treatment.  I haven't put anything in the water yet, because I didn't know if I should take the little one out first, or if the medications could harm him in any way.  I don't have a quarantine tank, but I do have a fish bowl that I could fix up with a small filter and a bubble stone as a temporary place for the little one to stay (the big one stops moving completely and goes into a sort of stupor whenever he has to temporarily be in a small place, but the little on doesn't seem to mind so much).  I'm going back down on Saturday, so I can start treating him then if they don't need to be separated.  If they do, I'm going to be back for good by Tuesday, so I can do it then.

I think the infection hasn't gotten too bad yet, so I'm hoping it won't be hard to treat...  Other than the red splotches on his fins, he seems to be feeling fine.  He's eating well, his swim bladder issues have died-down, and when he's swimming around and investigating things (which he does all the time) his dorsal fin is always erect and he's not holding his side-fins to his body.

I know the conditions I've got my fish in right now aren't ideal, but I really want to do all I can for them so that they can be around to enjoy their new tank once I move and can set it up!

[zookey]

Personally I would ONLY treat with about 10 tsp aquarium salt and Melefix.

I have never used anything else with my fish as far as fin issues go.  I am not sure how you decided that the fin issues were a bacterial infection, pictures may be helpful so we are sure you are actually dealing with a bacterial issue.

Good luck!

[ThunderandLightening]

I'll try and get a good picture of the fins when I go do their feeding and water change on saturday.
It looks almost identical to the fins of the fish in this picture; streaky and blood-red.  It's not as widespread as it is on the fish in the picture, but it's definitely spread further than it was when it first showed up.  Mine also doesn't seem to feel bad, and it doesn't look like anything else is wrong with him.  I don't think it's just a fin issue caused by poor water quality or anything.  He had issues with that when I first brought him home (torn fins, darks spots, ect.), but it cleared up after about a week of not being crammed in a petstore tank.  Their water is actually cleaner and more well-filtered now than it's ever been.
Does anything else cause the bloody-looking fins like this? 

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FAQ%20Pix/gldfshstreakbactinfect.jpg


Alright.. I think I'll have to order the melafix.  I can check a specialty aquarium store we have nearby for that and the salt, but if they don't have it I'll go ahead and order it. Do I need to take the other fish out while I'm treating him? 

Are these sorts of issues usually easy to clear up?  I'm really attached to my little fish, so I get worried whenever something's not quite right with them.

[Lolafish]

So definately not splotchy red spots, but red veining?  Some fish with large finnage will get this as a result of carrying the extra weight around, and it's more from stress than anything, but definately not bacterial.
 
Red veining is almost always water quality, or a sensitivity to something unbalanced in the water chemistry.  This is why it's common to see one fish with veining and not the rest.  The PH could be too high, too low, the nitrates could be too high, temperature too low, the oxygen may not be the right balance, or the fish could just be stressed out from being chased, or swimming too roughly in a confined space.  If you see the fish swimming eratic one moment, and peaceful the next, is a sign of stress.
 
Fin Rot is what we would treat for if the fins were ragged and/or had white edges around them.  I am guessing your fishes fins don't look like that?  We don't want to treat for something the fish doesn't have....every treatment lowers the fishes immune system and makes it harder to fight off infection. 

[Lolafish]

Personally I would ONLY treat with about 10 tsp aquarium salt and Melefix.

I have never used anything else with my fish as far as fin issues go.  I am not sure how you decided that the fin issues were a bacterial infection, pictures may be helpful so we are sure you are actually dealing with a bacterial issue.

Good luck!

I'm thinking just the salt for now.  The OP I think has posted that one of these fish had been chasing the other one....I just can't remember who was the chaser and who was the chasee. 
 
Am I remembering correctly ThunderandLightening?

[Lolafish]

Also, which fish was it that was having SBD issues when you brought him home?

[Lolafish]

Also, you're adding BS to your water during WC's to get the PH well above 7, correct?  Above you posted 7 out of the tap, but not what you buffer to.  PH is a big deal in GF tanks.  The veining may literally just be from that...but we'll wait till you catch us up on the answers to my questions.  I just think your baby wants a bigger tank.   

[ThunderandLightening]

Well.. There's one place where the red is kind of going from the base of the tail to the tip and looks like the veins all the way down.  There's another place that's more of a blotch near the tip of the tail.  You can see veins in this too, but that spot was what made me think it might be bacteria.  This spot is on a weird looking part of the fin though.  It's the bottom corner, and it's been curled under a bit since I got him, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not.  I'll get pics on saturday and put them up just to be sure.

So, should I still add in some aquarium salts?  I'm going to hold off on the melafix (though I think I might go ahead and buy some... It seems like a good 'medicine cabinet' sort of thing to keep around).

Yes, I normally add baking soda, but I think the pH has probably been dropping a bit where I've been changing their water every time I go down over vacation (I usually do a water change once a week, or maybe twice if things start looking icky, but it's been getting nearly a full change every three days).
The one with the red veining on the fins is the one that was doing the chasing.  The one being chased is fine, with the torn fins healing up well..  I felt bad about having him in the breeding net while I've been gone, but you should've seen the damage the larger one did in just one day.  My fiance and I both agreed that if that kept up, we'd probably have come back to find the little one dead..
The one with the fin issue is also the one that was having swim bladder issues when I brought him home.  Those were mostly fixed when I started feeding him mostly peas, but I've recently started adding soaked shrimp treats back in.  I really think that's what was causing his sudden aggression.  It literally stopped the day I started feeding him more protein again. Plus, it's not too much of a problem if he's only a little floaty now, because he's created a little tunnel in the roots of their plants that he swims under, and it keeps him from floating without having any sharp edges to cut himself on.

It's probably the pH.  I can't think of anything else that could be wrong with their water.  Just wondering, do your fish act funny when you first add in the baking soda?  When I do, mine both freak out for a few seconds.  Then they sit on the floor for awhile.  Then everything is normal again.  It's made me paranoid about adding too much..

Yeah, I want them to have a bigger tank too..  Only a few more months and they'll get it. 

Hopefully this is just stress that can be fixed with some baking soda!!

[Lolafish]

It's probably the pH.  I can't think of anything else that could be wrong with their water.  Just wondering, do your fish act funny when you first add in the baking soda?  When I do, mine both freak out for a few seconds.  Then they sit on the floor for awhile.  Then everything is normal again.  It's made me paranoid about adding too much..

Yeah, I want them to have a bigger tank too..  Only a few more months and they'll get it. 

Hopefully this is just stress that can be fixed with some baking soda!!

BS adds oxygen, so can give them a spurt of energy, but do make sure that you add it to the part of the tank that they're NOT in, so as not to drop right on them.  I'd keep it buffered at 8 so if for any reason you can't check on them for a week, you won't have to worry about it dropping.  It really shouldn't drop once it's been added though....BS is very stable.
 
As Laura suggested, the salt is the safest to use.  If you haven't used it yet, be sure to follow the instructions in the stickies for using salt for medicinal purposes, only increasing every 12 ours.  But if you are using the salt, be sure to only do your WC's once a week.

[zookey]

When adding BS to your water..... do you just drop the dry powder directly into the tank?  Or do you dissolve it in a glass/cup/bowl before adding to your tank? 

I would personally dissolve it in a separate container of water then add it slowly into your filter stream to distribute and mix it into your water quicker and more evenly.  Just a thought.

[ThunderandLightening]

Yeah, I've been adding it directly to the tank, but at the opposite side from where they happen to be.

I haven't started using the salts yet, but I am back at the apartment, so I'm around them all the time again now.  I wanted to see if buffering the pH helped on its own.  Just wondering, is there anywhere to buy JUST pH strips?  I haven't seen them at the petstore or WalMart, and the test strips that test for like seven different things are too expensive to use multiple ones just to buffer pH.
The one with the red patches on his tail seems to feel fine still, but the red patches are pretty prominent.  I'm attaching some pictures of it.  The camera is really crappy, so in one of the pics I outlined the areas that are red.  So does this look like just stress or an infection?  I'm thinking he wouldn't be acting so energetic and happy if it was an infection, but here are the pictures.  Also, the patches are actually a brighter red than what shows up in the pictures.  They're more the color of fresh blood than anything else (IMO the pics make them look duller and almost brown).

[Lolafish]

Such a cute fellow! I love him.

I wouldn't treat this unless he's never been Prazi'd, but salt may help. You can watch or treat...your call really. If new symptom appear though let us know.

[Lolafish]

Did you say you do or don't have aeration?

[Lolafish]

I don't use strips and cannot recommend them. API drops are more accurate.

[ThunderandLightening]

Prazi'd?  I'm not sure what that means, so there's a decent chance it's never been done to my fish  :P

I think for now I'm going to watch and see what the pH change does.  I've been meaning to get the drops for nitrate/nitrite testing, but they aren't at the petstore.  I'm going by a specialty shop later this week, so I'll see if they have them there.  Though, I feel fairly good about those as well as the ammonia levels, since the pads for ammonia and nitrite never even react to the water, they've been at a solid zero for a few months now.

Would pH strips be okay though?  They're good enough for lab work, so they've got to be pretty accurate, but I just can't seem to find them anywhere...

And yes, they have an airstone and two filters.  The big filter (which I had to modify so it would fit their tank and not buffet them around in the current) seems to put almost as many bubbles into the water as their bubble stone does.  They also have a couple plants, which I've heard helps keep the water oxygenated.

The red places haven't gotten any better, but since he seems fine I think I'll hold off treating for now.  If he starts acting sick or they spread to anywhere other than the tail or get worse, I'll post again. 
Argh, treating fish is about as difficult as treating frogs!  Nothing makes me more nervous than when one of those two have issues, since treatment can be just as dangerous as whatever they have.

[Lolafish]

GF need to be treated for flukes twice a yr but sometimes doing it during QT is a good idea. Water will always have those creatures in it so controlling their numbers keeps the fish stress-free. Too much stress weakens the immune system so we always try to minimize that.

AquaPrazi should be kept in your Med cabinet for that purpose.

Sounds like your setup is fine. The API drops are well worth their price as they last a really long time. Strips are OK for ocassional benchmark testing but don't count on them as a replacement.

Hope to hear he's looking better soon! Glad to hear how concerned you are. You're doing great!

[zookey]

I am sending you a PM (Personal Message)

[Hanna]

Zookey and Lolafish already gave you excellent advice, I only want to add my few cents too.

Api drops are much more reliable than paper strips. In chemistry liquids are always much more accurate than dry chemicals. But at the same time, paper strips are better than nothing.
Baking Soda should buffer the pH around 7.8 , it shouldn't drop too quick if any.
Illnesses, infections, fin congestions come from water quality issues and fishes witha weaker immune system will show symptoms pretty quick. This means the reason for showing these symptoms must be found asap.

Looking at the first pic you posted, I believe this is fin congestion which can lead ( if not acted upon it ) to fin rot.

I personally would treat with natural remedies, like already mentioned above with salt and Melafix. Pimafix is also good to have which is used for bacterial and fungal infection treatment.

I always have salt, Pimafix AND Melafix on hand  ( knock on wood, hardly ever used but it gives you a secure feeling just in case there is public holiday and you cannot get it if needed just then )

Hope your fishes start to recover, keep us updated. All the Best for your sweet darlings