Had a goldie who lived to be 10 and a half but now I can't keep one alive. Help!

[Festus]

Hello,

I have no idea if this is the correct place for me to post this, but I am in serious need of some help!   
A few months ago, my amazing goldfish, Festus, died.  He was 10 and a half years old and I loved him so much!  I am still not sure what killed him...perhaps it was old age, but I'm not sure.  He did have red streaks in his tail, but my ammonia levels were at 0.  I tried treating him with melafix, but it didn't help anything.  After he died, I cleaned out his aquarium really well, scraping all the algae off the walls and rinsing the whole thing with hot water.  I did not use any soap, bleach, etc...just the hot water.  Since the gravel in the tank was so old, I threw it out and got new gravel.  I also got a new filter... a topfin 60.  I set up the tank and let it run for 2 weeks before adding any fish. 

Then, to cycle the tank, I got a comet.  He lived for about a week and promptly died.  I did a partial water change, waited another week and got two little orandas.  One of them died a week later, but the second one lived for about a month.  He died today.  During the time he was alive, the tank went through a lot of odd changes.  Once the water turned cloudy and a strange white film grew on all the walls.  I wiped down the walls to remove the white substance and it never came back.  There was a massive brown algae bloom that seems to finally be resolving itself.  The little oranda who died today seemed to not be doing well for quite a while.  I thought it was tail rot and treated him with Melafix, but obviously it didn't work.  Although he was solid orange when I got him, he started to get black patches on his face and fins.  He seemed listless, stopped eating, and refused to move off the bottom of the tank.  During this time, I was doing partial water changes every two days and was constantly checking ammonia levels which were at a constant zero.  In a last ditch effort to save him today, I did another partial water change and immediately afterward, the aquarium water turned very cloudy and he died.  I always use water conditioner, too.  I am clueless as to what he died of, but I really feel like I failed him.   

Now I am worried about getting any new fish.  and I have some questions:

1. after I did the partial water change today, why did the water become so cloudy all of a sudden?

2.  If I want to get a new goldfish, should I completely empty out the tank and clean it up really well and go through the entire cycling process again (if I do, I am going to do the fishless cycling method!) or would it be ok to put a new fish in the same water the little oranda lived in even though I don't know what he died from?  I wouldn't want to put a healthy fish into contaminated water.  The current water ialso has melafix in it from when I was trying to treat the oranda.   

3.  I have heard of rare cases where the aquarium gravel you buy is no good and somehow makes the fish ill...I got the gravel from Wal-Mart...it is multi-color.  Is there any way that the new gravel was somehow toxic to my fish?  Should I start over with different gravel?

I admit that I was pretty clueless as to the details of the cycling process.  There are absolutely no good, knowledgable fish stores around where I live and I think I got some bad advice from the employees at petsmart...they told me that the only important thing to monitor was the ammonia.  They never said anything about nitrates or nitrites.  Now that I am more educated, I will do things differently if I need to re-cycle my tank.  I never even knew about the cycling process when I got my goldfish who lived to be 10...I guess I just got lucky with him!! Now, I know better, though! 

Any input, advice, or thoughts would be much appreciated!!!!  Thanks!

Oh...I almost forgot...my tank is 30 gallons , I don't use a heater for goldies, and mthe water where I live is hard. 

[zookey]

First of all, I am so sorry you have been loosing fish. I know how hard that is.

Secondly, I know most of the answers are in your original post, but can you please answer these questions?

1. Test results for the following:
    Ammonia Level?
    Nitrite Level?
    Nitrate Level (Before and After WC's)?
    Ph (in tank and out of tap)?   
    GH and KH?

2. Tank Size?  How long has it been running?  How many gallons?

3. Name and size of your filters?

4. How many fish in the tank?  Their size?

5. How often and how much water do you change?

6. Water additives or conditioners used?

7. What do you feed your fish?

8. Any medications added to the tank?

9. Any new fish added to the tank?  When?

10. Any new plants added to the tank?

11. Any unusual behavior from the fish?
   Fish are hanging near the surface and gulping for air and breathing rapidly.
   Fish are scratching themselves against objects in the tank (flashing).
   Fish has visible parasites or attached worms.
    Fish floating upside down.
   Fish has cloudy eyes.
   Fish have white spots.
   Fish is bloated and scales are standing out like a pinecone.
   Fish have black spots on body and/or fins.
   Fish have ulcers, lumps, or brown spots.
   Fungus or white cottony patches on the fish.

12. Well, city or RO water used for WC's?

13. Tank/Pond Temperature?

Just copy and paste them into a reply, then answer them.  It will make it much easier for our members to see the answers.

You described black markings on the fish... to me that sounds like ammonia burns (or the healing of them).  These are not uncommon to appear on a fish that was subjected to poor water quality at the pet store or WalMart.  I am not sure though how long it takes before they show up.  How old is your test kit?  They do seem to go bad if they are too old.  Are your testing supplies liquid tests or are they those dip strips?  Dip Strips also seem to be unreliable and it is strongly suggested to use the liquid tests, API Master Kit seems to be one of the most commonly used.

I know I have not answered many (if any) of your questions, but if you answer those question I posted above I am sure someone can help you better than I. 

Again I am so sorry you have lost your fish.

[Festus]

1. Test results for the following:
    Ammonia Level?   Was consistently at zero...used a liquid ammonia test kit that was purchased within the past 2 months
   
Nitrite Level?  Out of ignorance I did not test it...I now know better
   
Nitrate Level (Before and After WC's)?   Again, not tested because the pet store said it wasn't important
   
Ph (in tank and out of tap)?   unknown-petsmart said only ammonia mattered...I now know better
   
GH and KH? not known

2. Tank Size?  How long has it been running?  How many gallons?  30 gallon, running for 2 months

3. Name and size of your filters? topfin 60...not sure how many gallons are cycled per hour...it is a double filter with 2 carbon cartridges but no sponge media that remains in place

4. How many fish in the tank?  Their size? was just one small (1 1/2 inch) oranda

5. How often and how much water do you change? usually change 20% once a week, but when fish started acting sick, I changed 20% every other day

6. Water additives or conditioners used?  Use stress coat as a water conditioner and was using melafix to try to treat whatever was wrong with the oranda

7. What do you feed your fish? Wardly goldfish flakes that are soaked in water so they don't float and occasionally, green peas (deshelled)

8. Any medications added to the tank? Melafix

9. Any new fish added to the tank?  When? Added 2 orandas about a month after setting up the tank (after a comet died)

10. Any new plants added to the tank? None

11. Any unusual behavior from the fish?
   Fish are hanging near the surface and gulping for air and breathing rapidly. No
   Fish are scratching themselves against objects in the tank (flashing). No
   Fish has visible parasites or attached worms. No
    Fish floating upside down. No
   Fish has cloudy eyes. toward the end he did
   Fish have white spots. No
   Fish is bloated and scales are standing out like a pinecone. No
   Fish have black spots on body and/or fins. Yes
   Fish have ulcers, lumps, or brown spots. No
   Fungus or white cottony patches on the fish. No

12. Well, city or RO water used for WC's?  City water used...treated with Stress Coat

13. Tank/Pond Temperature? Room temperature...no heater used...about 68 degrees F.


Any thoughts?  Thanks!!!!

[zookey]

Well, I am no expert by far..... from what I read it sounds as if the fish possibly came to you with some kind of illness.  This is really not uncommon now-a-days from stores like WalMart, PetSmart, and/or Pet Co.  Not to say that you cannot buy a healthy fish at these stores.

As a precaution we suggest Quarantining new fish and treating them for anything that pops up.  In this case a round of antibiotic food may have helped (I think).  Typically any new fish I get get treated for Ich with salt and warmer water, also treat them with Prazi to fight flukes, and normally I feed no less than 14 days with an antibiotic food such as MetroMeds followed by JumpStart, an probiotic.

I know the feelings you are having right now.  I had a gold fish from the time I was about 7 until I was 18 and s/he lived in a bowl all of those years without ever showing any kind of illness.  The fish I have gotten in the last few years, mostly rescues, really don't seem to be near as hardy and I have lost quite a few.    Many of these fish suffer from the quality of care they receive while in the stores (or by their original owners).

If I were you this is what I would do. First of all I would test your source water.  If you have city water you may see some ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates straight from the tap.  I would also check your pH from the tap to see what your base readings are.  If the pH is really low you will want to make sure you have some buffering agent to bring it up to a neutral level.  If your water is good or manageable I would proceed in the following.  Seeing as the cause of death of the comet and two orandas is still unknown, I would tear down the tank and clean it well, especially the gravel and the filter.  Then I would set it all back up and do a fishless cycle using plain ammonia with no soaping agents.  This may take a while depending on many factors affecting the bacteria development, seems to me the higher the Gh/Kh in the water the longer the cycle seems to take (just my experience) but anywhere from 2-4 months.  You may be able to speed up the cycle a bit if you can find a GOOD live bacteria additive, like BioSpira.  The live bacterias are most often kept in a cooler at the fish stores so you may need to ask if they have any.  There are some that can be on a shelf but they are not as good as the live refrigerated kind.  Or if you are patient you can just wait out the cycle, your fish will appreciate you in the long run. Test the tank frequently to see the nitrogen cycle changes and then when that is complete do a partial water change and add ONE new fish.  I do not suggest a single tailed variety due to the need of large tanks or even possibly a pond when it is older.  The rule of thumb for goldfish is as juveniles 10 gallons per double tailed fish and 20 for single tailed variety, but after about a year they would do much better in 20 gallons per single tailed fish or more depending on their size.  All fish grow at different rates though so they may not need 20 gallons a piece at a year, but they will eventually.  After you have gotten the new fish I would keep a very close eye on the water conditions including pH (drops can be deadly), ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.  I also suggest doing at least a 30 percent water change per week...approximately 10 gallons of a 30 gallon tank... clean water has never hurt a fish..... more if the water conditions warrant it.  Personally I do a 50% every 3 days at the minimum in my goldfish tank -- goldfish are dirty fish.  Like I said, clean water never has hurt a fish.  I also would suggest you get some Metromeds or Medigold from Goldfish Connection (www.goldfishconnection.com) to keep on hand in case of any illness in the new fish.  Prazi is another good thing to use on new fish to make sure they have no flukes.  I would treat the new fish with these as directed to make sure they are healthy and have a good start in your tank.

I am not a fan of Stress Coat as a water conditioner and would suggest purchasing either AquaMel+ (make sure it is "+" and not plain AquaMel) or Prime.  Both of those are excellent dechlorinaters/water conditioners.

I wish you the best of luck with your future fish!  I think you are doing the right thing now with the research and preparations for the best of health for your future fish.  Knowledge is the best defense against many things that can harm our fish.  You may also want to think of looking at Rain Garden as a possible source for a new fish.  They are based in Hawaii and will ship the fish to your door.  I believe a fish you get from them will be healthier and stronger than one bought at the local WalMart or other chain store.  If nothing else you can just enjoy the pictures of what larger healthy fish will look like given proper care.  I like to look there often just to appreciate the fish he has for sale.

I don't remember if I said it before..... I am terribly sorry for the loss of Festus.  I know how hard it can be to loose a fish that had been with you that long!  I am sure he is swimming free now under the Rainbow Bridge with all our loved fish that have gone before him.

Please if you have any more questions feel free to post them.  I am sure someone here will be happy to answer them or just offer their opinion.  We are a friendly bunch around here.  A little fish crazy, but friendly!